Give Now  »

Noon Edition

Filmmaker Ash Mayfair

Read Transcript
Hide Transcript

Transcript

(SOUNDBITE OF BELA FLECK AND FLECKTONES’ “BLU-BOP”)

AARON CAIN: Welcome to Profiles from WFIU. I'm Aaron Cain. On Profiles we talk to notable artists scholars and public figures to get to know the stories behind their work. Our guest today is Ash Mayfair.

(SOUNDBITE OF AAKEN’S – “THE THRID WIFE: END TITLES”)

She was born in Vietnam and educated in the United Kingdom and the United States, receiving her MFA in filmmaking at NYU's Tisch School of the Arts. Her debut feature The Third Wife follows the path taken by a 14-year-old girl in 19th-century Vietnam as she enters an arranged marriage with a much older man. The story of the film was based on Mayfair's own family history. The Third Wife premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival in 2018, and it has since received numerous international awards. But the film's release in Vietnam sparked a debate in the country with much of the focus on intimate scenes involving the lead actress who was 13 at the time of filming. The controversy led Mayfair and her producers to withdraw the film from cinemas after four days. Ash Mayfair was in Bloomington as part of the IU Cinema's special series celebrating female filmmakers entitled “Running the Screen - Directed by Women.” While she was here, she spoke with Janae Cummings in the WFIU studios.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Ash, welcome to Profiles.

ASH MAYFAIR: Thank you so much.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Most audiences first began hearing about you and your debut feature The Third Wife at the film festival circuit in 2018. And this is a film that rocked your home country of Vietnam, which we'll talk about.

ASH MAYFAIR: ...To say the very least, yes (laughter).

JANAE CUMMINGS: And it did this almost as strongly as it rocked audiences in Toronto and Chicago and now Bloomington. I think responses like this are only possible when you have incredible storytelling.

ASH MAYFAIR: Thank you.

JANAE CUMMINGS: What is your history as a storyteller? Have you always been one?

ASH MAYFAIR: I believe so, yes. In fact, I think the earliest thing I can remember is making up stories and then forcing my parents to write them down for me because I couldn't read or write yet. I was an incredibly curious child and giving names to all the people I know no matter whether they liked it or not. And then creating background stories for them also no matter whether they like it or not. Yeah. As far as I can remember, I was already interested in characters and worlds and drama.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Did you have exposure to theater or film while you were growing up?

ASH MAYFAIR: I did. Not so much film because growing up in Vietnam, you know, art house cinema was pretty much nonexistent.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Yeah.

ASH MAYFAIR: But theater was something that was kind of very much part of my world because the oral tradition thing of Vietnamese literature and stories was very much passed down through the generations. And I lived with my grandmother and my great grandmother and my mother nearly in the same household. Their houses were next to each other in a tiny little compound. So, the idea of performance was always there. And, actually, I love the fact that you mentioned theater because theater really is my first love. I wanted to be an actress when I was very little. And my very first role in kindergarten was playing a bee. But I think also in the same performance I fell off the stage (laughter), and so declared that I will not act ever again. And I think that directed me towards more behind the curtain kind of roles afterwards.

JANAE CUMMINGS: So, would you say that this storytelling was nurtured with your family? It was something they encouraged?

ASH MAYFAIR: I think so. I think it was more tolerated. My parents definitely love reading, so that was very much encouraged for me to read and study about stories. But for me to make up my own stories, I don't think anyone in my family expected that I would become a filmmaker or like an artist per se. In fact, I think it was a little bit discouraged even when I was applying to university. My first choice was to go to film school for undergraduate. And my entire family was like, you will never make a living (laughter). And so, I made a bargain with my mother. And she said if you can get into one of the top schools in the world academically, then afterwards you can do whatever you want. And being an Asian child the first of my generation in the family, I was like, “Okay, name the most difficult university you can think of and I will try my best.” And so, she did and I got in.

JANAE CUMMINGS: This was Oxford.

ASH MAYFAIR: This was Oxford, yes. I was praying to all the gods and Buddhas I know because the only reason I applied was because Oxford has an excellent student drama program. That's nothing to do with academic mainstream courses. And so that's why I spent my three years of undergrad doing directing theaters.

JANAE CUMMINGS: How did you make that jump from theater to film? You mentioned wanting to go to film school for undergraduate but not a lot of exposure to film in Vietnam or at least...

JANAE CUMMINGS: ...No, not at all. Yeah.

JANAE CUMMINGS: ...Cinema in Vietnam. So where did that come from? Where was the switch?

ASH MAYFAIR: So, as I mentioned, I grew up reading a lot of literature. I actually studied literature for undergraduate and directing theater on the side. So, I think the love of the storytelling art has always been a very natural progression for me. And the necessity of delving into film is the language I think came because I was so heartbroken every time when the theatrical production would end. And I wanted it to continue. I wanted to be able to create this world where I can share ad infinitum with audiences around the world. And so, it was also in undergraduate that I started exploring cinema, discovering the old masters and being able to go to art house cinemas and checking out DVDs from libraries for example was like a huge privilege that I don't think I would have had if I stayed in Vietnam.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Were there any filmmakers or maybe films that really stand out to you from back then where you think this is where I really got the spark? This is where I was inspired to do more?

ASH MAYFAIR: I think over the years there's been a number of filmmakers that has really kind of struck me at several different points in my life. So, I can't pinpoint the very moment where I said this is it. I'm going to be a filmmaker. Because I'm here for the women in film month, I want to mention the female directors recently and also kind of in the past who have really kind of driven me to look further into my role as a director and as a woman making movies. And the first of them is Agnes Varda, because kind of her interest in joy and in laughter and in just playfulness was very specific to her, to French culture, but also something that I had never really seen before in cinema. I sort of started watching the old French masters and a lot of them are very serious. And also, there is the European film masters who were, you know, very dark, very kind of somber. And then Varda I discovered, I think, in my second year of undergrad where it was completely joyful. And there was no rules, and that was something that really stayed with me. And then kind of more of my contemporaries, for example, I will never forget watching The Piano by Jane Campion for the very first time, because it was the first time, also, that the language of cinema was so perfectly married with the language of music, in my experience. And so, I watched the film in theaters. Then I went outside. I took a deep breath, and then I went straight in to watch it again. So, I guess those two filmmakers - the ones that I come back now and again for inspirations and comfort too. I want to mention my contemporaries as well, because - I'm sure you've heard of her already. I think you've screened her film here, actually, at Bloomington but Wanuri Kahiu - amazing filmmaker and a friend of mine. And I think we bonded, also, over the fact that making movies in our respective countries was so difficult and add it to the fact that she's a minority female filmmaker, there's also like the additional political struggle that, believe it or not, was actually quite similar in both our respective countries. So, I really admire her a great deal for doing that and for making a film that was very important and very proud.

JANAE CUMMINGS: I'm curious, actually. When you speak about how difficult it can be to get a film made in your country being a woman, I wonder how much adversity did you face and how did you respond to that?

ASH MAYFAIR: Vietnam, historically, is a country that is extremely difficult and rather oppressive for artists in general. So even without the gender specific struggles, it's already difficult I think for any kind of independent filmmakers or first-time directors specifically art house filmmakers to get anything done. Financial struggles is one of the big reasons because there's just no support whatsoever from the government unlike European countries or even other developing Asian countries. On top of that, there's a huge problem of censorship. For decades now, filmmakers have struggled with that. That every step of the way from the writing process to the production and then post-production, there are different rounds of censorship that you have to submit to the Ministry of Culture. So, the script gets censored for one round. And then when you're shooting, policemen would come on my set and they can come at any random time of day to monitor what you're doing. And this is perfectly within the legal structure that the Vietnamese government allows. And then when you're done with the film, then the film will get censored once again before it can be sent out to theaters. So, there are just so many things that already built - in-built structures that against the freedom of creativity.

(SOUNDBITE OF AAKEN’S – “THE THRID WIFE: END TITLES”)

AARON CAIN: Writer-director Ash Mayfair, creator of the critically acclaimed film, The Third Wife. She's speaking with Janae Cummings. You're listening to Profiles from WFIU.

JANAE CUMMINGS: I think a lot of times when we think about filmmakers and their art, we wonder what experiences in their lives have shaped their art - have shaped how they've come through the world. And for you, particularly, when it comes to The Third Wife, which follows a 19th-century 14-year-old girl as she enters an arranged polygamous marriage to a wealthy landowner. For you, art is imitating life there. Can you talk to us about your personal connection to this story and kind of how that fed in to the film?

ASH MAYFAIR: The quick spiel is the situation of the main protagonist in the film was the situation of my great grandmother. She was married when she was a teenager and her daughter - my grandmother who's still alive and who I live with - when I was making the film, had an arranged marriage also. Me personally, I experienced certain discriminations when I expressed my desire to date women, for example, as a teenager and as a young adult growing up in the country. Several kind of sections of - or kind of intersections of life and art happen through my home life, and I think it's essentially one of the greatest gift, despite its history of darkness - that I was in the right family and have the right support and being given the right opportunity I think to tell this very particular story. However, I don't think it's very unique to just my family.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Right.

ASH MAYFAIR: And that is something that has become so evident for me since the conception of this firm, but especially because, after we finished, and taking the film to upwards of 70 festivals internationally now - everywhere I go, I will have audience members or someone from the press or a student come up to me and tell me, Ash, watching this was like watching my mother's life. That was something that moved me incredibly deeply.

JANAE CUMMINGS: This is a story that stretches across cultures. Whether we're in India or African countries or otherwise, this is often what we see - the kind of child bride going into a marriage that already has a polygamous marriage, whether - she may be the second, third or fourth wife and they're all hoping to bear the son that gives them that status.

ASH MAYFAIR: It is something that we still see, unfortunately.

JANAE CUMMINGS: When the film came out - it came out in Vietnam and 40,000 people saw it in four days. So, it's clear that the story of domestic oppression which is woven into this national history and that of so many nations struck a nerve - and then it was banned.

ASH MAYFAIR: Yes.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Ostensibly because the age of the lead actress, who is I think 12 or 13, and her being featured in sexually suggestive scenes. That was...

ASH MAYFAIR: Ostensibly.

JANAE CUMMINGS: ...The supposed reasoning. I read that you pushed back on that critique and you have also hinted that there is something deeper at play. Can you talk about that?

ASH MAYFAIR: I think it's actually very simple and very evident at the get-go because this is the film that's - speaks extremely loudly of female sexuality. To bring this film into a country with millennia of history of female suppression, we knew would receive some kind of reactions from certain conservative groups, but also from governmental bodies because, aside from the fact that this is a very loud film about women's rights, I'm a very loud director about women's rights. It's not just the history of oppression that artists ever suffered in Vietnam, it's really also a history of sexism that, for so many years now, women and female artists in the countries have lived a situation that my film presented. It's a very dark part of Vietnamese history. I assure you that really no one is teaching in school or is talking about to young people. I think it's funny you mention ostensibly it's her age - that is somewhat the public's reaction, of course. The bullying campaign online was directed towards the actress and her family - was definitely because of her age. But I think deeper than that, we go to the really root of it - it's the attitude towards women and what would happen if women start speaking up. So, beyond that - I was very curious because, for the entire week where pressure were being put on a Ministry of Culture to force us to pull the film from theaters, I was very intrigue in kind of analyzing what would be the reason and what was causing certain people in government to be so fearful. Because clearly the firm has touched something...

JANAE CUMMINGS: Right.

ASH MAYFAIR: ...In social consciousness that was sparking a lot of debates.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Right.

ASH MAYFAIR: I don't think the government of Vietnam really likes debates, especially about women's rights and especially about freedom of creativity.

JANAE CUMMINGS: It is astonishing to me that there can be this accusation lobbied in a country where child marriage is very much - it's still in the history. There are still plenty of people alive, like your grandmother, who have been through this situation. The outrage should be over this history and over this present, not over the actress's age.

ASH MAYFAIR: And I really think that there's a huge distance between artistic representation of something and the actual history that the art is criticizing. So, I was very interested in the question of art and life - and as you mentioned earlier, they are reflections between either and or - it's not sometime very clear. But in this case the actress and her family has publicly spoken internationally and nationally about how much they support the film and how much they are proud of it and how much it has taught them and the joy that it's brought them. I think the focus for a lot of detractors of the film, in Vietnam anyway, was on how young she is but not on how wonderful her performance is or how courageous she is to stand up to all these internet bullies. There's something socially wrong there, I think.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Absolutely. She's a fantastic actress - did an incredible job. Had she acted before?

ASH MAYFAIR: No, this was her first time.

JANAE CUMMINGS: How did you find her? She seems perfect for the role.

ASH MAYFAIR: She is amazing, yeah. I burst into tears when I auditioned her because it was such an incredible journey - and the entire film rides on her performance. She's in almost every scene. So naturally it was our focus - and we spent so long looking for this girl. I went to every single school I think existed in the country from north to south. We auditioned I think more than 900 girls in total.

JANAE CUMMINGS: And she was the perfect one.

ASH MAYFAIR: She was. And not only that, it was her courage and tenacity and how much she actually fought for the role that really told me about the maturity and sensitivity and the heart of steel of this young lady, because she fought her own family to be able to play in this. Her mother doubted her at first and, from what they've told me, she decided, not her family.

JANAE CUMMINGS: What was really fascinating about her performance and I think the film overall - when I started watching, I expected a lot of dialogue. So much is happening and she's experiencing so much. So much of what we get are peeks and glances - we discover things through her eyes, and it's all very quiet observation. Did you develop the script that way?

ASH MAYFAIR: I remember the very first draft was like 120 pages, or something - plenty of dialogues. And then when we went into production, it was already maybe only 70. Throughout the writing process, being on location and then meeting the cast - and I had the immense privilege of having the cast on location several weeks in advance of shooting. So that gave me so much insight into their lives. And also, actually, the situation gave the cast a lot of opportunity to improvise. Expositions became unnecessary when the human was there and the behavior was very evident. I changed so much of the songs and games, and a lot of that was improvisation that made it into the film. It's how - I didn't write that.

(SOUNDBITE OF AAKEN’S – “THE THRID WIFE: END TITLES”)

AARON CAIN: You're listening to Profiles from WFIU. Our guest today is filmmaker Ash Mayfair. She's speaking with Janae Cummings.

JANAE CUMMINGS: It's common, I think, in Asian cinema to depict female oppression and then that resilience. It's been done quite a bit - stories of mistresses and concubines and executions and suicides and all these unhappy endings - these kind of miserable wive's stories- and they're all told through that male lens, generally speaking at least. How do you think your approach differs from these counterparts?

ASH MAYFAIR: Personally, I'm not sure because I've never had...

JANAE CUMMINGS: Sure, yeah.

ASH MAYFAIR: ...The vantage from the other gender's point of view. The only thing I could do telling this story is to be as honest to myself and my emotions as possible. That was the first priority. This is how I knew this woman. Every single woman that you meet on the screen is based on somebody I know, even down to the story of the servant. My nanny was in love with an army doctor for decades, but she gave that up in order to raise me and my little sister. So, all of that found undernote of authenticity through collaging of all these experiences and lives. I hope that is my love for women and womanhood that sets The Third Wife apart from very long histories of stories about miserable wives and concubines, as you said. I mean, naturally, it's not that long of a history. It's basically dominated by maybe two or three very famous films in the West.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Very true. Very true.

ASH MAYFAIR: But it's also that - I think looking at the world through her point of view - through the main character's eyes - that provides us a fresh perspective and unique - because I want to really take the audience through an experience that's sensory, that is really related to the journey of this character, that really gives us everything that she feels in her coming of age in such a complex and nuanced, subtle - but also a difficult manner, rather than just telling the story alone.

JANAE CUMMINGS: This film is sensual and it's powerful and it's delicate. It's almost devastating in its beauty and its composition because it's juxtaposed with these horrible things. How intentional was that? When you set this, out you're writing this script, did you intend for it to be these beautiful settings?

ASH MAYFAIR: I think the duality of the beauty of the visual and the devastation of the emotional impact was definitely intentional. I knew that the story is actually quite horrific and violent in its essence, right?

JANAE CUMMINGS: Right.

ASH MAYFAIR: And, therefore, the presentation of it needs to be as delicate as possible. That was the idea going in, but it was not specific to that. We set the composition, for example. A lot of the inspirations came via research on location. I was just kind of so enamored by so many of these places. And I lived in tiny villages to find pacing of live in the 19th Century for several months when I was writing the script. That was something that struck me - the natural beauty and also the grand distance between how small human life is compared to this kind of cosmic scale of the rest of the world. And then also it was my knowledge of history and, I think, my love for all things visual for that sensory experience that this young girl's going through. So, a combination of everything brought us to the visual decisions that were made in the film finally.

JANAE CUMMINGS: There seemed to be a lot of symbolism running through the film, whether it was water or it was the silkworms turning into butterflies.

ASH MAYFAIR: So, none of that is scripted, by the way.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Is this part of the research - the things that you were just seeing and knew you wanted to incorporate?

ASH MAYFAIR: Absolutely. I think almost all of that was improvised or either happened because we fell in love with something on location. So, the silkworm, for example - we were searching for villages that were still creating organic silk the same way that silk was made in 19th Century in Vietnam in order to build the costumes. And when I witnessed the process, I fell in love with these women in the tiny village that has been these artisans who have not changed their methods for centuries. This is something that was passed down to them from their mothers. And it just became such a perfect visual symbolism for the lives of women back then that I decided to bring it into the elements of the film. And the river, for example, symbolizing, again, the flow of life, leading her into the wedding and taking the coffin away - not to give away too many spoilers. That again - because I was living in the north of Vietnam, where my great grandparents came from, and researching and looking for a place and just seeing how villagers were travelling from place to place and how the country's actually filled with rivers. Yeah. So sometimes I feel like there was a kernel of an idea and then that grew into something else completely, and sometimes even beyond my expectation because the film demanded that it be so.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Toni Morrison has said that all good art is political, and a quote is, "you ought to be able to make it unquestionably political and irrevocably beautiful at the same time." And in this day and age, it is hard to watch The Third Wife with anything other than a political lens, and we've talked a little bit about that. What were some of your goals when you were telling the story?

ASH MAYFAIR: Well, if I remember correctly, Toni Morrison also said that, “if we don't engage” - right? I might be butchering her quote here – “then we are accepting the status quo.”

JANAE CUMMINGS: Right.

ASH MAYFAIR: Growing up, I can't pinpoint the exact transition or exact time when I can walk down the street and declare proudly, "I'm a feminist." But I knew that it was a process of growth for myself and also for my work. I became more interested in who I am and what my story signifies. I also became more interested in how this kind of theme's related to what women are going through in the world today. When I was editing The Third Wife, the MeToo movement exploded overnight. And I remember reading my friends sharing their accounts of sexual harassment on social media and kind of feeling, like, both an immense wealth of joy and sadness intermingled because I had, in a vacuum perhaps, in Vietnam, together with my cousin who created a film that has also tapped into this shared sense of pain and suffering that women all around the world are experiencing. I'm glad if the film is being watched through an aesthetic lens. I'm glad if the film is being watched through a political lens. I'm glad it's being watched through an emotional lens. I think all of it is completely necessary and I'm glad if it's touched people in any way at all possible.

JANAE CUMMINGS: What impact do you hope that it has? Maybe if you're thinking about - you go on and have a great body of work. And...

ASH MAYFAIR: (Unintelligible) (laughter).

JANAE CUMMINGS: …We're talking years from now and we look back on The Third Wife, what would you have liked people to have taken away from it?

ASH MAYFAIR: It's so hard. Sometimes I watch films as an adult - right? - and the feeling is completely different than when I watched them as a teenager, for example. I suspect it's going to be the same even though I've created this film myself. Right now, I am right in the current of history. And making this film speaking very strongly about women's stories at the moment, I think the culture changed really where women and more women filmmakers than ever are stepping forward and saying this is it. And we're telling our stories now. We're taking charge. So, I really hope that The Third Wife play however small part in that history opening up doors for young girls and women everywhere to feel empowered to embrace their narrative.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Going back a bit to our discussion about May, the lead character in The Third Wife, it feels like it should be a coming of age story. But it can't be, because she is in this society and in this world she is of age. There is no misspent youth. There's no discovery. She's here and she's learning how to be a wife, and a mother, and a leader of a household - because we don't see a lot of that in film. Usually, we do get that coming of age story where someone learns a lesson and they're able to go on to this next step in their life. And May is left with, I think, these incredible choices where we don't know where they're going.

ASH MAYFAIR: I still think that despite the social expectations, her kind of microcosm of the universe has for her - to bear a son, right? - there is still discovery. There is still the discovery in her own sexuality, her own identity and sensuality and desire and even in her own strength. I think in that respect, it is a coming of age story just is in a very different setting.

JANAE CUMMINGS: ...Not the way that we think of it here in the West.

ASH MAYFAIR: I believe so. And also, I was very interested in that juxtaposition, too, between social expectation of women and what women naturally want. So, to boil that down in a nutshell, I actually think this is a universal story for that reason. Whether it's set in the 19th Century or not, social expectations of women in so many countries are still at odds with what women actually want for themselves. The fact that this is a very young girl that she's modeled after a situation of my great-grandmother and it's the combination of a lot of my own personal experiences growing up, I can't help but have more modern perspective on the retelling of this very classical narrative for that reason.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Another thing that I appreciated and I was surprised by was as part of May's sexual awakening - kind of falling in love, I think, and really not having that realized. What were the choices you made to put that in?

ASH MAYFAIR: So, her feelings for Xuan developing for the second wife was actually a very natural growth. That was in the script very early on...

JANAE CUMMINGS: Okay.

ASH MAYFAIR: ...Right in the beginning. I mentioned earlier - growing up, I had a lot of objections when I expressed desires for women as a teenager. So that was something that was already kind of in the back of my mind. I didn't purposely create the situation to make a political statement. It just became actually a very organic development because in the situation of the household, Xuan, the second wife, was the person who is the most kind and also was the most liberated about her own sexuality. So, the different degrees of attraction and different aspects, also, I think, of womanhood that I wanted to celebrate, so May falling in love with a woman existed right from the start. But her not having that desired ever formally realized, we were always walking that line between this kind of desire and satisfaction. Even right into the moment when we were shooting that scene I was talking to the actress. We were discussing how they feel. And it was through months actually of developing their relationship and the interaction on set that we settle on a tone I think that was perfect for a character at the time for the historical background too at the time. Actually, it worked out well because I found it more devastating that way.

JANAE CUMMINGS: We've talked a little bit about casting, particularly May's character. I'm wondering about the rest of the cast. Everyone is carrying these incredible emotional burdens. It was so well acted across the board I thought with - and as we spoke about before those kind of, like, peeks and glances and the unspoken moments - that goes across the cast. How do you cast for that? How do you direct that?

ASH MAYFAIR: So, the casting for every role came with its own particular challenge. The range of experience in the cast is so wildly different. May had zero experience. The actress playing the first wife is a veteran actress. The actress playing the second wife was actually a singer. Directing just the three of them varied widely for me. And I think a lot of it was instinctual for me. So, with May, for example, I had to schedule the shoot in chronological order of the script to give her actual time to absorb the character and understand that arc. There was no other way to do it.

JANAE CUMMINGS: She's growing along with her character.

ASH MAYFAIR: Exactly. Directing the first wife was very simple. It was really like, “faster, slower,” and “start here.” And she was already so much like the first wife that there was very little work for me to do on that count of developing her character alone. And then the second wife, for example, she's a musician. So, her sense of acting is a lot more rhythmic. It's to do with music and flow. And she sings a lot in the film so I had to sort of adapt that kind of language as well, in order to kind of speak to each person's strength. It was fascinating to me as well, because this was my first feature. And I had never worked with such a big cast. All my shorts have one or two characters. It's very short, very simple. So, I am super thankful, actually, that my team has given me so much time to rehearse and even longer time to find all these characters - even the actor playing the young boy. He's not that experienced either. But going into this, he's a force of nature. And that really came from having a tremendous amount of time where the entire cast lived together in costumes, practicing the customs that a 19th-century family would have. I mean, you should have seen us.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Oh, that's beyond method (laughter).

ASH MAYFAIR: Yes. I was dressed in servants’ clothes. I was walking around joining them when they had dinner. And we went to sleep when the sun went down. The entire team was on board with that. So, it's really an incredible experience.

(SOUNDBITE OF AAKEN’S – “THE THRID WIFE: FUNERAL MONTAGE”)

AARON CAIN: Ash Mayfair in conversation with Janae Cummings. You're listening to Profiles from WFIU. Ash Mayfair is the writer and director of the critically-acclaimed film, The Third Wife.

JANAE CUMMINGS: What was the process for you getting The Third Wife from what I understand was a thesis at NYU to a feature film that's travelling the world? How long did that take and what was that process like?

ASH MAYFAIR: I think this is my sixth year now working on this film almost full time. And I think, actually, I'm fortunate because, apparently, that's fast for a lot of first-time feature filmmakers. The story existed since forever - really since my childhood. But it wasn't intended as a screenplay at first. I thought it would be a novel, especially in undergrad. It was at NYU in grad film that I was encouraged to write a screenplay and then developed it. I was also very fortunate that I had a team of thesis advisors who not only helped me artistically with the writing but also afterwards encouraged me to explore and apply to so many development labs that then lead on one way to another to assembling my crew together, getting a producer interested, getting some of the key actors interested and then eventually financing. That entire process, I think, took me three, four years. And then one-year production, nearly one-year post after. So, it's a very long time.

JANAE CUMMINGS: What were you doing in those six years? Because you're not making money on the film while you're working to get it done...

ASH MAYFAIR: No.

JANAE CUMMINGS: So, what are you up to?

ASH MAYFAIR: I was living on grants a lot of time. So, thankfully, going out of film school, I won a number of awards for the script which allowed me to continue writing. So, I started to travel, to scout, and to approach people and do more research, and to approach investors. But aside from that, I was actually a sound mixer for many years. Yeah. I worked in New York for a number of indie films. And I deliberately picked that, because if I work in a sound team as a boom operator or a sound mixer I get to be very quiet, but I also get to be very close to the actors. And when the writers gave notes, I was always there. So, I learned a lot through that entire period, like, from NYU for three years of school and then several years afterwards waiting for the film to get made. That was what I was working at.

JANAE CUMMINGS: You mentioned that you thought that this would be a novel. Do you think that's still possible?

ASH MAYFAIR: Well, actually, there's been interest in adapting The Third Wife - not by me, but from a few people in some Asian countries - into either an opera or theater as a stage piece. I would be happy to assist someone with the development of this but I don't know if I can continue to do it myself.

JANAE CUMMINGS: You mentioned a little while ago you have a number of shorts that you said usually involved one or two people and now you have this massive cast, this massive team. Are there any connections between the shorts you've done and the feature - whether it's thematic or approaches or anything like that?

ASH MAYFAIR: So, going into film school, I set myself one very clear goal and that was to explore and push myself as much as possible in terms of genre. And so, I made a number of shorts. But each of them I really try to experiment and go into a different genre altogether. I made comedy. I'm very bad at comedy (laughter). I made experimental art house, black and white film, poetry pieces. I made drama. I made horror. All of them were exercises in one form or another. And what that taught me, I think not so much a thematic link to The Third Wife, but something that came across that's very interesting is that each story is going to demand its own kind of cinema language. When I wrote The Third Wife and started discussing it with my cinematographer, we decided on this particular visual, not because I've done anything that looked like that before - and neither had my DP - but we knew it was the right visual language for the film because the story has made it so, because this script has told us so. Beyond that I can't really explain much more about the particular kind of nitty gritty choices of the decision when we're making this film. But I think, going forward, I really hope that in the future I'll be able to create films that have their own contained universe and therefore their own cinematic language altogether. You look at my next few scripts, they're nothing like The Third Wife. So, people are very surprised (laughter).

JANAE CUMMINGS: What's coming?

ASH MAYFAIR: Actually, after this I'm heading to Busan. My next project is called Skin of Youth. It's a story about a transgender singer set in Vietnam in the '90s and her lover who's a dog cage fighter and how they're caught in the criminal on the world of Vietnam in the '90s to earn money for her surgery. It's a very different...

JANAE CUMMINGS: Why that story?

ASH MAYFAIR: Again, I think it is a combination of different reasons. But I remember very distinctly my little sister - she just turned twelve this year. At seven years old she tells me, “Ash, I'm going to grow up and become a boy.” And this entire conversation made its way into The Third Wife.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Yes, yes.

ASH MAYFAIR: The character of that little girl is 100 percent based on my little sister. And then from that moment I was already kind of curious about her statement - a child's vision on gender and on the world - but also I became very interested in gender identity in general. And so, I made it a point to kind of look into it and do some research and study and remembering friends who are transgender and going through transition in my teenage years. Some of them I'm still friends with today - sort of piqued my curiosity. So, during production of The Third Wife I started doing some kind of scribbling and just brainstorming for these two characters. And the decision became quite natural - setting for Skin of Youth - setting it in the 1990s in Vietnam was because I was growing up in the '90s in the country. In 1994, I believe it was, when America lifted the economic embargo on Vietnam. And I remember growing up and just kind of overnight there was suddenly an explosion in pop culture, in fashion, in music, in wealth and visual arts, everything. As a teenager I loved this. There was also an immediacy for people to start embracing their own identity. And I saw that happening with my friends. And they were expressing themselves through their clothing and their haircuts. And the teenagers and the minorities - LGBT community in Vietnam - suddenly found themselves with a platform for expression and communication. As a teenager, as a 13-year-old I became aware that there was an LGBT community - that I was one of them.

JANAE CUMMINGS: It's not just you, right.

ASH MAYFAIR: Right. And I was very curious and kind of freeing but also interesting at the same time. I left Vietnam when I was 14, very close to those years. In looking back, I remember it was very formative. That became the reason why this next story existed for that period.

JANAE CUMMINGS: I'm curious about casting for this role. I think that a lot of issue in film is that people aren't represented. And there are plenty of award-winning films where you have a cisgender person playing a transgender character. I assume that will be, of course, under consideration when you're casting this film.

ASH MAYFAIR: I've already casted this film, yes. She's actually transgender. And because the course of her transition is evident in the film itself, we're actually going to have to follow her as she goes through the transition in real life, in real time. So, the shooting of the film is going to take maybe two years or however long it will manage for her to come up with the funds and for her body to adapt.

JANAE CUMMINGS: So, in the same way that the actress who played May is developing, it's kind of the same kind of thing. Like we're following her through this transition. I'm excited. I'm a little speechless. I'm very excited. I want to see this right away.

ASH MAYFAIR: Thank you.

JANAE CUMMINGS: What else do you have?

ASH MAYFAIR: I always travel with a notebook and a pen because literally everywhere I will try to force myself to write down some characters or ideas - tidbits of conversation I hear. I really hope to be able to make this other film that is actually based on a novel written by my sister. This is called If I Had Two Lives, and it was published this April in the United States. So, it's a very new book, partially inspired by our childhood living with my mother in Vietnam, who was a political figure, and my sister's adulthood as an immigrant in the United States. So, I finished the script actually only a couple days ago, so that is...

JANAE CUMMINGS: Congratulations.

ASH MAYFAIR: ...Very, very, very fresh still.

(SOUNDBITE OF AAKEN’S – “THE THRID WIFE: FUNERAL MONTAGE”)

AARON CAIN: You're listening to Profiles from WFIU. Our guest today is filmmaker Ash Mayfair. She's speaking with Janae Cummings.

JANAE CUMMINGS: You are - and we talked about this very, very early - a passing mention that you're here at Indiana University as part of IU Cinema's “Directed by Women” film and conversation series. Can you talk to us about what a series like this - what this means to you and the good that it does?

ASH MAYFAIR: I'm incredibly honored to be a part of this series, honestly. I couldn't wait to come here, first of all, to communicate with the students, because I love teaching, but also to find myself, as I say, in the course of history. Because I'm sure we're all aware of the actual stories and challenges of minority female artists working, not just in this country but abroad, and literally in the film industry absolutely everywhere. I hope that series like this continues - that audiences and young filmmakers will embrace that idea and feel encouraged and see themselves represented, not just on the screen but also behind the camera. My cinematographer was a woman and during the production in Vietnam, so many of the G&E crew - actually of the entire production crew have had upwards of 20 years of experience. And yet it was the first time for them working with a female cinematographer. And then on top of that, the final month of production on this film, she was pregnant. So, if ever there was a stronger statement for feminine power and strength, that was it right there. And so, I hope that seeing this film, hearing stories about the making it, The Third Wife, talking to me and just watching the unfolding of female narratives all around the world - I hope that women everywhere will feel that they would start to be able to do this too and in multiplications of numbers.

JANAE CUMMINGS: When you're communicating with students - which, often, I assume, in your travels, you don't get that opportunity very often and we have this wonderful resource in the cinema here for our students. Have you met any yet - have you heard any stories that maybe inspire you?

ASH MAYFAIR: I have, actually. This is why I'm constantly surprised and honored as a filmmaker to have this opportunity, because I was in Brazil for the festival premiere of the film and I was invited to speak at secondary schools. I was told that I would meet with a group of, like, 13 - 14 years old and so I assume, all right, these are kids so we're not going to talk about something that's so controversial or deeply upsetting. I turned up. They have watched the film. And I found out that this group of 20 - 25 14-year-old girls have set up their own movement to combat sexual harassment at the school. And so, I was completely floored and humbled at having this opportunity to learn that these young women - young ladies, really - not kids...

JANAE CUMMINGS: Yeah.

ASH MAYFAIR: ...Like I presumed - full-fledged feminists. That they are activists and they've created something so powerful and that's why they wanted me to come and talk to them about a film, about an experience of a girl like them halfway across the world. And so, I learned so much from that meeting. I was super inspired by that meeting. I am sure there are many young women like that all over the country here in the U.S. and in the world.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Coming into your feminism - it took time for me. Whereas teenagers today - they're where I am now, perhaps, and they're 13 - they're 14. And I wish, looking back, that I had that lens and I had that sensibility then. Do you feel any of that? Were you already kind of in this place and then have grown from there?

ASH MAYFAIR: No, not at all. I mean, it took a very long time for me to even understand who I am, let alone to understand what I'm doing within this course of historical events of feminism. I know feminism already existed, but to play my part in it now in the medium that's so visual and approachable and is international is an immense privilege that I know not a lot of women get to have in Vietnam, my own country, but also in the U.S. too. That awareness of the power of this medium I think has only struck me very recently. So, I think I'm still learning how to be a good feminist...

JANAE CUMMINGS: Right.

ASH MAYFAIR: ...And how to use it for the right reason.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Do you think you'll always be in film? When we talk about medium, is there something that you might want to expand to at some point? I know it might not be a novel, but anything else - maybe it's television or - you talked about someone wanting to adapt The Third Wife for opera - that kind of thing. Are you interested in that?

ASH MAYFAIR: Actually - yeah, absolutely. I mentioned before, theater was my first love. She will always be my mistress. Film is my wife and the theater is my lover, on occasion, because she breaks hearts. I'm also writing a graphic novel. I wrote the screenplay Set Between Two Walls. So, set at the end of the French colonial occupation in Vietnam and before the American war started. And the story's between - it's a love story between a French woman and a Vietnamese man who knew each other's children. As a film, it's a huge and historical war epic. I don't know when we'll get that made. So, I'm adapting that into a graphic novel.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Well, a graphic novel can - I mean, it could be a wonderful series.

ASH MAYFAIR: I believe so, yes. And I think it will be a really beautiful work of art as well. I would love to direct more theaters in the future - musical theaters, even. I'm really in love with musical theaters. I don't know anything about opera, but I like watching them. Yeah, I think the transformative power of formless art is wondrous and constantly shifting between mediums actually allow me to learn a lot about different things.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Do you think you'll ever return to acting? I know you had that one disaster however many years ago, but does it ever out to you?

ASH MAYFAIR: You know, I had a walk-in part in The Third Wife. I mentioned I was wearing servants’ costumes. And then my editor decided to cut me out because it was too obvious because I am a terrible actor.

JANAE CUMMINGS: Well you - maybe a new Hitchcock moment. You can be that one.

ASH MAYFAIR: (Laughter) Possibly. I mean, I wouldn't say no. But right now, directing and writing is definitely my main passion.

JANAE CUMMINGS: I am interested in this graphic novel very much. Where do you say - or does someone propose to you - that something become a graphic novel? Is that something you just thought of?

ASH MAYFAIR: Well, I read graphic novels, so - pretty religiously. And when I wrote Angel of Dust, the epic war romance, I was talking to a lot of producers and they were all like, “Ash, this is a multi-million dollar kind of picture which we're not going to get because you haven't made your first film.” I can set it aside and revisit it - the story again after I finished The Third Wife - and falling in love with more visual mediums. I was actually doing a lot of research looking at watercolor paintings when we were shooting The Third Wife. I decided that this would be a graphic novel, but kind of in the medium watercolor paintings. And my collaborator, Z Behl - she's an artist based in New York City - and we met through IFP Film Week. And we actually just became very close. She'd read that script as part of filmmaker's circle I have where we send scripts and cuts and bounce ideas with each other. And she's a visual artist, so her work is - she's already made kind of graphic novel and books for children and she said, “look, Ash, this feels like something we should try.” And we did. And we did a few panels for tests and it was wonderful. And so, I'm really happy to try and explore that. It will be my first time too, so I'll let you know how it goes.

JANAE CUMMINGS: I look forward to it. A bit about this epic war drama. Do you think, in time, is that something you really want to make?

ASH MAYFAIR: I would love to, yes.

JANAE CUMMINGS: What do you think it will take?

ASH MAYFAIR: Oh, God. I have no idea. I envisioned it as like an animation because I'm really in love with Studio Ghibli's - you know, Hayao Miyazaki’s work. And there's also never been an adult animation about a period of history in Vietnam War. If I can, I would make it that. If not, it could be a television series. If - I don't know, maybe 20 years. We'll see.

JANAE CUMMINGS: That sounds fantastic. Ash, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today. This has been fun and fascinating.

ASH MAYFAIR: Thank you so much for having me. It's such a great honor to be here.

(SOUNDBITE OF AAKEN’S – “THE THRID WIFE: END TITLES”)

AARON CAIN: Ash Mayfair, writer director and creator of the critically acclaimed film, The Third Wife. Ash Mayfair was in Bloomington as part of the IU Cinema special series celebrating female filmmakers entitled "Running the Screen: Directed by Women." She's been speaking with Janae Cummings. I'm Aaron Cain. Thanks for listening.

MARK CHILLA: Copies of this and other programs can be obtained by calling 812-855-1257. Information about Profiles, including archives of past shows, can be found at our website: wfiu.org. Profiles is a production of WFIU and comes from the studios of Indiana University. The producer is Aaron Cain. The studio engineer and radio audio director is Michael Paskash. The executive producer is John Bailey. Please join us next week for another edition of Profiles.

(SOUNDBITE OF BELA FLECK AND THE FLECKTONES’ “BLU-BOP”)

Ash Mayfair

Ash Mayfair (Aaron Cain, WFIU)

Ash Mayfair was born in Vietnam and educated in the United Kingdom and the United States, receiving her MFA in filmmaking at NYU’s Tisch School of the Arts.

Her debut feature, The Third Wife, follows the path taken by a 14-year-old girl in 19th-century Vietnam as she enters an arranged marriage with a much older man. The story of the film was based on Mayfair’s own family history.

The Third Wife premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival in 2018, and it has since received numerous international awards.

But the film’s release in Vietnam sparked debate in the country, with much of the focus on intimate scenes involving the lead actress, who was 13 at the time of filming. The controversy led Mayfair and her producers to withdraw the film from cinemas after four days.

Recently, Ash Mayfair was in Bloomington as part of the IU Cinema’s special series celebrating female filmmakers entitled “Running the Screen: Directed by Women.”

While she was here, she spoke with Janae Cummings in the WFIU studios.

Music Heard On This Episode

Loading...
Support For Indiana Public Media Comes From

About Profiles